I have successfully linked to the Outlook.com calendar using the azure portal. There are 2 of us and we have both logged into our calendars as employees.
We have come across a few issues:
1. When creating an event, for the organiser, we can see the event on the outlook calendar and will be warned if there is any overlap etc... however the same event does not appear on the Amelia calendar view on the backend of our site... for the same employee... however if we add any other employee into the event as staff then the event shows... can you explain the logic here? if it is that organiser will not necessarily be attending the event, that makes sense, however then, it would seem far more logical to link the 'staff' attending the event to the outlook calendars and this would be far more helpful... we have a situation with a recurring event where the organiser and myself need to attend each week... however my outlook calendar shows that I am not booked for anything... can you please help with this?
2. If no staff are attending the events as guests then no events are displayed on the Amelia calendar on the back end?
3. Is it possible to have the logic that says the organiser is just that... they also have to be staff attending to appear on the calendar(s) as they are not booked otherwise?
4. The issue for us is that we are involved in events and appointments want the calendar to be a true reflection of that... hope you can help... I can send screen shots if that helps....
The issue I am raising is regarding Events and how they impact on the calendar for employees:
Before I send screenshots regarding what is displayed on the backend calendar... which is an issue... the bigger issue for me that I am struggling with is this: If I am the organiser of an Event and I am also an employee synced with (in our case) outlook calendars.. the event will show up on my calendar... however if enter an employee in the 'staff' box to say that they are attending the event... their synced calendars do not show anything.... I am struggling with the logic of this because:
a) the organiser of an event does not necessarily attend the event... eg an administrator might be the organiser and not attend.... and,
b) the 'staff' named in the box are attending...and as staff are employees, attending an event, we do not want them to still be shown as available on their calendars to be booked for an appointment...
Would you please explain this logic or better still please consider urgently changing it so that the calendar works reliably in ensuring an employee can only be booked one in a time slot...
...this would also mean than an organiser is never assumed to be attending the event unless they are also entered in the staff box... or you add a tick box next to organiser to say 'attending?'
I understand from another ticket that the organiser and staff of an event are supposed to appear on the synced outlook calendar... this is currently not happening... can you help fix this?
I have attached 3 uploaded screen shots:
Pic#1: Shows event where Tricia (an employee) is added as staff attending Expression and Sharing - Heart-Based Living and on her outlook synced calendar the event is not there ... the pic also shows an appointment with Peter which is synced correctly there
Pic#2: shows the Poetic Expression Event which recurs each Monday... Tricia (employee) is the organiser, however there is no staff added... the event is displayed on her outlook calendar, however it is not displayed on the backend Calendar
Pic#3: Shows that when Tricia (or anyone else) is added as staff, that the event displays on the backend calendar.... not sure why this is?
Hope this helps you understand the issues and that you can help fix this
Thank you for the update on this and for your patience.
Please provide me a temporary WP-admin (administrator) user for your site where this happens, so we could log in and take a look ‘from the inside’ as that’s the most efficient way to see and resolve the issue.
We do not interfere with any data or anything else except for the plugin (in case that’s a production version of the site), and of course, we do not provide login data to third parties.
You can write credentials here just check PRIVATE Reply so nobody can see them except us.
Firstly, I would like to sincerely apologize for the delayed response as we have been experiencing an unusually high number of tickets. I am sorry that it has taken longer than usual to respond to your concern and your patience is highly appreciated.
We have passed this to our testers and will provide you with an update as soon as possible.
You will understand that this is disappointing... I understand that you cannot provide an ETA on this right now, however, given that staff attending events was intended to show as busy on the outlook calendar, can you at least confirm it will be given priority to fix?
It is fundamental to not being double booked and being able to rely on the integrity of Amelia to managed appointments and events...
I have seen another new release, without this issue being fixed... this is not a feature request it is an issue which means calendars do not truly show all bookings and can lead to double bookings... your website talks about being able to manage appointments, events and employee calendars... at the moments we book employees for appointments and for events... with only the organiser who books the event showing up on the synced outlook calendars rather than the staff attending this is causing us not to be able to rely on the calendars... organisers do no always attend the events that they set up, however staff attending do... would you please have another look at making this fix a priority... it would make a big difference
I have passed this to our management as a priority, but as we do have plenty of different features developed at this time, I cannot promise when it will be implemented.
In the meantime, please let me know if you have any other questions.
Thank you Uroš I would hope that as this issue means that calendars may not. be accurate, it would be attended to at the earliest possible moment... new features are always welcome, but of little use when the calendars are not accurate... I hope you understand my concern... not being able to say when, feels like it is not a bug needing urgent fixing... I hope this can be dealt with so we can rely on Amelia...
I am so disappointed to find that in the latest release, this issue is still not fixed... the calendar cannot be relied upon until it is.... I first reported this to you at the beginning of July... surely there must be something that you can do... I am really struggling with this...
I was very sad that this was not fixed in the V7.0 release... given the integrity of the calendar cannot be relied upon... I just do not get how work is prioritised...
Our developers are working on completely changing the calendar page on the back-end and this will be redesigned in the future, which is why this has not been changed yet.
Please let us know if you have any other questions.
The only issue I have is that employees attending an event and entered as staff attending... this does not appear on their outlook calendar... you pointed out back in July that this was supposed to work and it would be fixed... I do not understand why this fix is now waiting for the complete redesign of the backend calendar... ? it is just a bug requiring a quick fix so that the employees calendar accurately reflects all of their bookings whether appointments or events...
Please make representation to just get this fixed asap... please...
Thank you.... the most important part of this logic for events is that staff attending the event are the ones whose linked calendars are updated to show this (as it affects their availability for appointments etc)... however I would recommend not assuming that the organiser of the event is in fact going to the event unless they appear in the list of staff attending... hope this helps and we can see some movement on this asap
I am feeling very frustrated at the moment. I have just updated to version 7.4 and still this issue of staff attending an event not showing on outlook calendar has not been fixed. It was July that I reported this to you and have provided information and access to my site to enable clarity.
In your Oct 2023 message you stated '
'Hello Nigel,
Thank you very much for your patience.
We have included this in one of the next few updates and it will released as part of it.'
Our employees are involved in events and appointments... one of the reasons I purchased Amelia... at the moment the oganiser of the event is shown on the outlook calendar... please switch this to staff attending... the calendars are not accurate because of this... it is not about patience... it is about the integrity of the calendars... you mentioned before that this was supposed to work... would you please treat this as an urgent bug... and get it fixed... please help me with this...
I'm sorry to hear about your frustration, but it's completely understandable. I'll jump in here and try and get to the bottom of this as soon as possible.
I just tested the integration with Amelia 7.4, and I can't replicate this issue. Here's an event for January 31st where an employee is added as "Staff":
This is added to the Outlook Calendar linked to the employee profile:
The event also appears in the Calendar section of Amelia:
Now, as this ticket had a lot of back-and-forth info, please let me know if I'm missing something here, so I can test it further.
Also, the staging site you sent previously no longer works for me since there's a htaccess popup which I don't have the login credentials for. Can you provide me with temporary wp-admin access so I can also test this on your end?
Just remember to post a PRIVATE response, so no one else sees the credentials, as this is a public ticket.
Would you please do your test again with a different organiser to staff member. What happens is that the organiser is being synced to the outlook calendar and not the staff... and this is the problem... so if you can test with a different organiser I believer you will find the same...
I'll test it, of course, but I need you to show me what exactly you mean since the organizer in the Event shown yesterday is different from the Staff - the organizer is the employee "Amelia Test", and the Staff is "Aleksandar Test" employee.
Just a bit more info about how I should test this, and I'll get right onto it.
Thank you for working with me on this... I am sorry I misread.. you indeed used a different organiser... however it is not clear from your example who the [email protected] is linked to... is it possible that this is linked to employee amelia test and not yourself?
I have carried out further tests which I hope helps: Firstly I set up 2 new events for 7th May 2024. For the first event Tricia was the organiser and I (Nigel) was the staff attending... and the second event I was the organiser and Tricia was the staff attending. For each of these I have shown the Outlook calendar entries... you will see that it is the Organiser's outlook calendar that gets synced and not the staff member attending... To prove that the outlook links/syncs are ok, I added an appointment for me (Nigel). In summary from what I have attached it looks as though: 1. The events sync to the organiser's outlook calendar and not the staff attending 2. However the Amelia calendar appears to display the staff attending correctly...
I have attached the first four screen shots for all this... I hope we can find a solution
Our developers created a task to handle this, but I can't provide any ETA for the fix. As soon as I hear from them, I'll get back to you - that's for sure.
I just heard back from them, Nigel, they said that it's added as a priority bug, so it should be fixed for our next update.
That is, of course, if they have the time to squeeze in the fix before the next update is released. If they don't have the time to fix it by then, it will surely be included in the update after that.
Please keep an eye on it, test it once the update is released, and let me know.
Our developers and the QA team worked together on this, and they said that this is not a bug, actually, but a configuration issue.
In Amelia Settings/Integrations/Outlook Calendar you need to have the "Add Attendees" option enabled. Once this is configured, the employees linked to a calendar will receive an event invitation from the organizer, and they will either need to accept the event invitation, or it will be automatically added if their Outlook account is configured like this.
Please test it out with this option enabled and let me know if it works for you.
Thank you and the team for looking into this and for the information provided.
I have changed the setting regarding attendees and the results are mixed.
What works: Staff attendees do in fact receive an invitation to the event.
Issues:
1. The organiser in many organisations do not actually attend the events that they organise and there appears to be no way to indicate whether or not they attend. I had the idea that maybe I could add a miscellaneous employee (in my case I named it RTHB Admin. However I could not get this to work without also creating a link to outlook, that is... without the Organiser linked to outlook the staff attending sync did not work. This is a problem for me and most organisations, where PA's, Schedulers and Administration staff often organise events that they do not attend... so they would not want their calendars to show that they are... would you look at providing some workaround/flexibility here... maybe provide a tick box next to organiser to say 'Attending?' or actually take this automatic link, with the logic that if the organiser is attending they will also be added to 'Attending;. Your help with this would be much appreciated.
2. A small point, the (?) tip for 'Add Event's Attendees' states:
Enable this option if you want your employees to see in the event customers that attend the appointment. Maybe this could be clearer?
Further to my previous message, I have tested. more scenarios for setting up events and have found the following issues:
When creating recurring events and adding employees as staff attending, if the recurrence if for more than a few recurrences Amelia just sits there whirring away and never finishing creating the event and updating the calendar... I added an event with 2 employees as staff attending which was for the 3rd Thrusday for each month in 2024 (so approximately 12 outlook calendar entries for 2 employees and even after one hour it had not finished and after another 45 minutes I had to stop it by refreshing. Another issue is that an invitation email is created for each recurring event. So if the event is weekly for a year, 52 invitation emails will be sent to each employee in the staff attending field. Is there anything we can do to have the option to stop this... in our case, when we add staff attending we want them to be booked, just like we can with appointments. We have a number of events which are weekly, monthly etc and we need to be able to simplify this as it is overwhelm. Hoping you can help.
When generating recurring events, there is the option to set the recurrence of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and last, however there is no option to set the 5th. For example there is a 5th Thursday in Feb, May, August and October, however this option is missing. If you set it to for example last Thursday, you will get 4th on Jan, March, April, Jun, July, September, November, Dec in 2024, and the 5th on the other months... so there is no way to just get the 5th. I have raised this in another ticket, however it was seen as a feature request rather than an incomplete implementation of recurring. I hope I have explained it better here and a fifth option can be added. We have an event that occurs on the 1st, 3rd and 5th week and we cannot at this stage simply set it... it is available on many other calendars including outlook etc.
Aleksandar as you know there has been a lot of to and fro since last July, I really want Amelia to work well and I am desperate to find a simple way forward so that we and others can fully benefit from Amelia.
Hoping you can help. Let me know if you need anything else for me (including examples or beta testing)
The organizer of an event is the employee on whose Google/outlook calendar is the event. Everyone else (staff and customers) are the attendees. This is how Outlook/google calendars operate.
Since we can have multiple employees as staff but only one has to be chosen for the calendar we put a field, organizer, for clients to choose from. Can you explain in more detail what you use the organizer variable for if this user is not attending the event and should not have the event added to their calendar?
And if it's not added to their calendar, on whose calendar should it be saved? The organizer field is so you can choose a member of staff who will have the event on their calendar.
We could not reproduce the endlessly loading error when creating many recurring events. This could be affected by your server/hosting.
We will look into creating a setting that would not send an invitation for every event but only one. However, this also depends on the possibility of google/outlook calendars.
The 'fifth' week setting was not added as some months wouldn't have it and therefore the event would exist on some months and not others. Is this the use case you desire? If so, we will consider adding it based on ease of implementation.
Thank you for your responses and some good questions.
In terms of the organiser, my only point was that the organiser does not always attend and their calendar will have the event on it. In our case we have had to create an additional outlook account for a virtual staff member so that this can work. So maybe let us leave that there with no further actions.
In terms of the endlessly loading error since updating to 7.4.1, recurring events seems to work well.
Now to the emails for recurring/multiple events. Imagine if you were running event each Tuesday for the year, the way it is currently, the staff attending would receive 52 emails with each one needing to be confirmed. I just did the same operation on Outlook (live), I created a recurring event for the 4th Thursday each 2 months. My business partner was the organiser and I was invited. I got just one email. If Amelia could operate the same way it would make a real difference.
In terms of the 5th Occurence, yes not every month would have one, however it would ease implementation by not having to manually go through the calendar and identify which months have a 5th and which do not... you already have 4th and last, where last is 4th or 5th, so hopefully adding the 5th option will not be too onerous, and would make real difference.
Thank you for working with me on these issues, which hopefully improves Amelia and the experience for other users also.
Warm regards
Nigel
PS I have added the first 4 screenshots here and will put the other 4 in the next message. They show you the steps from Amelia to outlook and then creating a recurring event in outlook and the email from that...
Thank you for getting back to me and sorry for the delay!
I checked with our developers and they said that there's a development task for the 5th week and for the issue of sending email notifications for each and every event separately. We can't promise any ETA, but it is on their "to-do" list!
If I missed anything, please accept my apologies and let me know if there's anything else I can do to help!
Thank you for working with the developers and good to know that both issues (5th week recurrence) and for outlook going from an email per recurring event to once per recurring event (eg once a week for 52 weeks would create 52 email invitations where as outlook would create just one email).
The difficulty comes when there is no ETA. I understand the load that developers have and the amount of requests, I would ask though that requests and bugs are prioritised by core and non-core... at this stage recurring events are virtually unusable as putting on an event which is recurring such as a weekly classes would result in a staff member attending needing to accept 52 email invitations for each class... so sadly for us until progress can be made by your developers we just cannot go ahead and use the events in Amelia. I would ask you to gain a priority on this with some outline date eg it will be released within one week, one month or whatever, so we can plan accordingly... in our case the update would reflect how outlook already works...
Please help not leaving this so open-ended
Thank you too for working with us, you are the first to do so.
Thank you! Having events which do not create multiple emails will make so much difference. The 5 recurrence will also be very helpful. This is a good step also for Amelia and other users. I am grateful to you for working with me on this and I look forward to being able to fully utilise Amelia very soon.
We don't generally include external beta testers for improvements, only new features, but I will forward your offer to our developers and if they require assistance, I'll get back to you.
I have just checked the changelog for 7.5 release and I cannot find anything about creating one email for recurring events or adding 5 week of month occurrence... is it in this release? If not when?
This is so disappointing, to have put in so much time in communicating the problem etc and being told the next release, and now after the next release being told no ETA, it means I am stuck... in this case this is to just to adopt the way that outlook already works... not having an ETA leaves me with no hope of a resolution in site... this is a core function in my view... please can you speak with the developers regarding an ETA... recurring events creating an email for each is just so overwhelming for people...
I understand your concerns and your request for a modification to the Outlook integration, which is currently unique to your needs. However, I'd like to explain the process involved in making such modifications.
The core functions of the Outlook integration are intricate and deeply integrated into the system. Any changes to these core functions require careful consideration to ensure they don't conflict with other parts of the plugin. Our development team must assess and test these modifications thoroughly to guarantee they work seamlessly.
After implementing the change, our QA team needs to conduct extensive testing to ensure all functionalities, especially those potentially affected by the modification, remain intact. This process often involves back-and-forth between development and QA to ensure everything is functioning correctly.
While we strive to accommodate all requests, we also have to prioritize tasks based on their impact and urgency for all our users. Customizations like these are not covered under our standard support, as they require additional resources and time.
I hope this explanation sheds some light on the process. We appreciate your understanding and patience as we work through this and I certainly hope that the change will be implemented soon.
Thank you for the explanation. If you look back at all of our conversations on this matter, it was all doable and identified as a problem that needed fixing... until it looked difficult...
Your last message whilst explaining the steps, narrows the issue to me... however, anyone using your events calendar to generate recurring events synced with outlook will have the same problem as me, ie if there is a weekly event then there will be 52 emails generated for one event for a year alone, so if running many recurring events, this just becomes overwhelm... and as demonstrated, outlook works correctly in itself... ie one email for a recurring event...
I am hoping that as some time has passed, that you can revisit this issue and encourage it to be resolved... I want to use the events side of Amelia and this recurring problem, just makes it impossible... and as stated it would affect any user... it may even make Amelia more attractive to events-based organisations... one observation I would make is that it appears that the sync to outlook does not take place until Amelia has actually generated all of the recurring events, instead of parsing the initlal parameters of the recurrence.... this maybe why all the individual emails are being created...
I'd like to clarify that while I acknowledged the problem and agreed it needs to be fixed, I never said it was doable. To quote myself from February:
We will look into creating a setting that would not send an invitation for every event but only one. However, this also depends on the possibility of google/outlook calendars.
As you said - outlook works correctly in itself - however the integration included in Amelia is not Outlook itself, it's based on Microsoft's API, and the integration depends on the rules and capabilities of their resources provided to other developers (like us). So, not all core functionalities of Outlook exist in the resources provided for developing the integration.
We did resolve the development task for the 5th-week issue, but the invitation issue remains in our queue. However, as mentioned in my previous response, tasks like this require additional resources and time. We understand the inconvenience this may cause and intend to resolve it as soon as possible. However, we can't provide an ETA or speed up the process due to the complexity of the issue. Here's why:
The solution requires adjusting our code (which takes time) or implementing a custom solution that overrides Microsoft's rules.
Once a possible solution is found, we'll need to develop, test, and likely alter it after testing.
Any changes to core functions require careful consideration to ensure they don't conflict with other parts of the plugin.
We most certainly acknowledge that this is a significant issue for users who rely on our Outlook integration. However, we've previously received fewer reports about this problem, which is why we've considered it an inconvenience rather than an urgent priority. As stated before, while we're committed to addressing all user concerns, we also have to prioritize tasks based on their impact and urgency for all our users.
I feel that the tone of our conversation has changed from hope, understanding in your previous messages and collaborative problem solving to explaining why it cannot be done or the difficulties in working on it... this is a genuine problem and until it is fixed, the power of the events side of the Amelia will be hamstrung... so the benefits of solving are there......
I did make an observation in my previous message to assist with this and hopefully this may help in progressing this issue: '
one observation I would make is that it appears that the sync to outlook does not take place until Amelia has actually generated all of the recurring events, instead of parsing the initlal parameters of the recurrence.... this maybe why all the individual emails are being created...'
I appreciate the 5th occurrence being implemented however it needs this other fix to be really useable.
I believe there's a misunderstanding rather than a change of tone in our correspondence. As I previously mentioned, we do acknowledge the invitation issue and our developers have created a task to fix it. While it was rather easy to fix the 5th-week issue, this one is a bit more complex. I've done my best to assure you that we are working on it, but I can't provide an ETA because anything I say might be incorrect, and that would lead you to think I'm either lying or that we are ignoring your request, which is not true—we definitely agree that the issue needs to be addressed.
Since I'm not a developer, I can't say how long it will take to fix, and all the info I’ve shared is relayed from them. I believe your observations will be helpful, but I can't guarantee their impact as I'm not familiar with the code or how it functions. What I can promise is that the task has been updated with this information, so our developers will consider it once they start working on it.
I'll do my best to expedite the resolution of the issue, but again, I can't promise a specific timeline.
The issue of creqting multiple emails rather than one for recurring dates also happens with Appointments which is just as difficult... for example if a customer books an employee for each thursday for 40 weeks from 2pm-3pm it will create 40 emails... it would make like much easier and far less cluttered if this was just one summary email... the calendar will do the rest....
Observing what Amelia does, after creating recurring appointments, it creates individual records for each appointment and as each one is created it seems as though it is at that point that the email(s) are created... whereas if the email could be created from the creation of the recurring appointment and then the recurring records created after, this might be a way forward... in any event... if I had 100 customers created a weekly appointment there would be thousands of appointment emails created... which is overwhelming...
Hope you and your development team can help with this
I totally get how overwhelming it can be to receive multiple invitation emails for recurring events. I’m sorry for any frustration this has caused for you and your team.
After chatting with our development team again, we’ve found that the way our plugin currently works isn’t set up to handle this modification. Right now, the events created in the integration aren’t seen as recurring in Outlook. Instead, a separate event is made for each occurrence, which is why you’re getting all those emails. Making it so you only receive one summary email for recurring appointments would require some major changes to how the integration functions (a complete code overhaul).
I know this is a big deal for you, and I encourage you to either vote for this suggestion here or submit a new feature suggestion here. Even though you’re currently the only one bringing this issue up, your input can help us prioritize what we work on next.
I sincerely regret to be the bearer of disappointing news, and I wish I could provide you with a timeline for resolution. However, after thorough discussions with our entire development team, it has become clear that modifying this feature is more complex than we initially anticipated. Currently, refactoring the code for the Outlook Calendar integration is not a priority, as we haven’t received significant feedback regarding its functionality. From my understanding, you’re the only one advocating for this change.
I have successfully linked to the Outlook.com calendar using the azure portal. There are 2 of us and we have both logged into our calendars as employees.
We have come across a few issues:
1. When creating an event, for the organiser, we can see the event on the outlook calendar and will be warned if there is any overlap etc... however the same event does not appear on the Amelia calendar view on the backend of our site... for the same employee... however if we add any other employee into the event as staff then the event shows... can you explain the logic here? if it is that organiser will not necessarily be attending the event, that makes sense, however then, it would seem far more logical to link the 'staff' attending the event to the outlook calendars and this would be far more helpful... we have a situation with a recurring event where the organiser and myself need to attend each week... however my outlook calendar shows that I am not booked for anything... can you please help with this?
2. If no staff are attending the events as guests then no events are displayed on the Amelia calendar on the back end?
3. Is it possible to have the logic that says the organiser is just that... they also have to be staff attending to appear on the calendar(s) as they are not booked otherwise?
4. The issue for us is that we are involved in events and appointments want the calendar to be a true reflection of that... hope you can help... I can send screen shots if that helps....
Hello Nigel,
Thank you for reaching out to us.
Can you please provide me with the screenshots of this and I will assist you with this according to that?
Looking forward to your reply.
Kind Regards,
Uros Jovanovic
[email protected]
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The issue I am raising is regarding Events and how they impact on the calendar for employees:
Before I send screenshots regarding what is displayed on the backend calendar... which is an issue... the bigger issue for me that I am struggling with is this: If I am the organiser of an Event and I am also an employee synced with (in our case) outlook calendars.. the event will show up on my calendar... however if enter an employee in the 'staff' box to say that they are attending the event... their synced calendars do not show anything.... I am struggling with the logic of this because:
a) the organiser of an event does not necessarily attend the event... eg an administrator might be the organiser and not attend.... and,
b) the 'staff' named in the box are attending...and as staff are employees, attending an event, we do not want them to still be shown as available on their calendars to be booked for an appointment...
Would you please explain this logic or better still please consider urgently changing it so that the calendar works reliably in ensuring an employee can only be booked one in a time slot...
...this would also mean than an organiser is never assumed to be attending the event unless they are also entered in the staff box... or you add a tick box next to organiser to say 'attending?'
I really need your help on this most of all...
Just to confirm we are syncing with the outlook calendar which I understand is intended to work for this? So if you can help me
I understand from another ticket that the organiser and staff of an event are supposed to appear on the synced outlook calendar... this is currently not happening... can you help fix this?
I have attached 3 uploaded screen shots:
Pic#1: Shows event where Tricia (an employee) is added as staff attending Expression and Sharing - Heart-Based Living and on her outlook synced calendar the event is not there ... the pic also shows an appointment with Peter which is synced correctly there
Pic#2: shows the Poetic Expression Event which recurs each Monday... Tricia (employee) is the organiser, however there is no staff added... the event is displayed on her outlook calendar, however it is not displayed on the backend Calendar
Pic#3: Shows that when Tricia (or anyone else) is added as staff, that the event displays on the backend calendar.... not sure why this is?
Hope this helps you understand the issues and that you can help fix this
Warm regards
Nigel
Attached files: Amelia2-Event-Booking-Syncing-to-outlook-Calendar-2-PoeticExp-nodisplay.jpg
Amelia1-Event-Booking-Syncing-to-outlook-Calendar-1.jpg
Amelia3-Event-Booking-Syncing-to-outlook-Calendar-2-PoeticExp-display-after-staffadd.jpg
Hello Nigel,
Thank you for the update on this and for your patience.
Please provide me a temporary WP-admin (administrator) user for your site where this happens, so we could log in and take a look ‘from the inside’ as that’s the most efficient way to see and resolve the issue.
We do not interfere with any data or anything else except for the plugin (in case that’s a production version of the site), and of course, we do not provide login data to third parties.
You can write credentials here just check PRIVATE Reply so nobody can see them except us.
Kind Regards,
Uros Jovanovic
[email protected]
Rate my support
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Would you please give me an update on progress with you 'taking a look ‘from the inside’?
Thank you
Hello Nigel,
Firstly, I would like to sincerely apologize for the delayed response as we have been experiencing an unusually high number of tickets. I am sorry that it has taken longer than usual to respond to your concern and your patience is highly appreciated.
We have passed this to our testers and will provide you with an update as soon as possible.
I appreciate your patience.
Kind Regards,
Uros Jovanovic
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Hi Uroš
Thank you... is there any progress or update?
Warm regards
Nigel
Hello Nigel,
Thank you for your patience.
I have performed tests and this is how it works at the moment. We will work on changing this behavior in the future, but there is no ETA on this.
Please let me know if you have any other questions.
Kind Regards,
Uros Jovanovic
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Hi Uroš
You will understand that this is disappointing... I understand that you cannot provide an ETA on this right now, however, given that staff attending events was intended to show as busy on the outlook calendar, can you at least confirm it will be given priority to fix?
It is fundamental to not being double booked and being able to rely on the integrity of Amelia to managed appointments and events...
I hope you can respond...
Regards Nigel
Hello Nigel,
Will do that, I will have this passed to developers as a priority and hope that it will be changed soon.
Thank you for understanding.
Please let me know if you have any other questions.
Kind Regards,
Uros Jovanovic
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Thank you Uroš, I am happy to Beta test if that helps?
Regards Nigel
Hello Nigel,
We will let you know if that is needed, thank you very much for your offer.
In the meantime, please let me know if you have any other questions.
Kind Regards,
Uros Jovanovic
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Hi Uroš
I note that this ticket is shown as closed, does this mean the issue is fixed?
Hello Nigel,
Tickets are automatically closed by default after a week of the last answer in the thread.
We will keep you updated on this, but it is still not been done as there are plenty of features that are being developed at the moment.
In the meantime, please let me know if you have any other questions.
Kind Regards,
Uros Jovanovic
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Hi Uroš
I have seen another new release, without this issue being fixed... this is not a feature request it is an issue which means calendars do not truly show all bookings and can lead to double bookings... your website talks about being able to manage appointments, events and employee calendars... at the moments we book employees for appointments and for events... with only the organiser who books the event showing up on the synced outlook calendars rather than the staff attending this is causing us not to be able to rely on the calendars... organisers do no always attend the events that they set up, however staff attending do... would you please have another look at making this fix a priority... it would make a big difference
Thank you
Regards
Nigel
Hello Nigel,
I have passed this to our management as a priority, but as we do have plenty of different features developed at this time, I cannot promise when it will be implemented.
In the meantime, please let me know if you have any other questions.
Kind Regards,
Uros Jovanovic
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Thank you Uroš
I would hope that as this issue means that calendars may not. be accurate, it would be attended to at the earliest possible moment... new features are always welcome, but of little use when the calendars are not accurate... I hope you understand my concern... not being able to say when, feels like it is not a bug needing urgent fixing... I hope this can be dealt with so we can rely on Amelia...
Kind regards
Nigel
Hello Nigel,
I will let you know as soon as possible on the status of this so that you are aware of the status of this implementation.
I appreciate your patience.
Kind Regards,
Uros Jovanovic
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Hi Uroš
I am so disappointed to find that in the latest release, this issue is still not fixed... the calendar cannot be relied upon until it is.... I first reported this to you at the beginning of July... surely there must be something that you can do... I am really struggling with this...
Regards Nigel
Hello Nigel,
Thank you very much for your patience.
We have included this in one of the next few updates and it will released as part of it.
I appreciate your patience.
Kind Regards,
Uros Jovanovic
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Hi Uroš
I was very sad that this was not fixed in the V7.0 release... given the integrity of the calendar cannot be relied upon... I just do not get how work is prioritised...
Hello Nigel,
Thank you for reaching back out to us.
Our developers are working on completely changing the calendar page on the back-end and this will be redesigned in the future, which is why this has not been changed yet.
Please let us know if you have any other questions.
Kind Regards,
Uros Jovanovic
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Hi Uroš
The only issue I have is that employees attending an event and entered as staff attending... this does not appear on their outlook calendar... you pointed out back in July that this was supposed to work and it would be fixed... I do not understand why this fix is now waiting for the complete redesign of the backend calendar... ? it is just a bug requiring a quick fix so that the employees calendar accurately reflects all of their bookings whether appointments or events...
Please make representation to just get this fixed asap... please...
Hello Nigel,
Thank you for your patience.
I will provide you with an update on this as soon as possible.
Kind Regards,
Uros Jovanovic
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Hi Uroš
Thank you.... the most important part of this logic for events is that staff attending the event are the ones whose linked calendars are updated to show this (as it affects their availability for appointments etc)... however I would recommend not assuming that the organiser of the event is in fact going to the event unless they appear in the list of staff attending... hope this helps and we can see some movement on this asap
Thank you for your support
Regards Nigel
Hello Nigel,
Thank you for clearing that up.
I will have this checked and will provide you with an update on it.
I appreciate your patience.
Kind Regards,
Uros Jovanovic
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Hi
I am feeling very frustrated at the moment. I have just updated to version 7.4 and still this issue of staff attending an event not showing on outlook calendar has not been fixed. It was July that I reported this to you and have provided information and access to my site to enable clarity.
In your Oct 2023 message you stated '
'Hello Nigel,
Thank you very much for your patience.
We have included this in one of the next few updates and it will released as part of it.'
Our employees are involved in events and appointments... one of the reasons I purchased Amelia... at the moment the oganiser of the event is shown on the outlook calendar... please switch this to staff attending... the calendars are not accurate because of this... it is not about patience... it is about the integrity of the calendars... you mentioned before that this was supposed to work... would you please treat this as an urgent bug... and get it fixed... please help me with this...
Kind regards
Nigel
Hello Nigel.
I'm sorry to hear about your frustration, but it's completely understandable. I'll jump in here and try and get to the bottom of this as soon as possible.
I just tested the integration with Amelia 7.4, and I can't replicate this issue. Here's an event for January 31st where an employee is added as "Staff":
This is added to the Outlook Calendar linked to the employee profile:
The event also appears in the Calendar section of Amelia:
Now, as this ticket had a lot of back-and-forth info, please let me know if I'm missing something here, so I can test it further.
Also, the staging site you sent previously no longer works for me since there's a htaccess popup which I don't have the login credentials for. Can you provide me with temporary wp-admin access so I can also test this on your end?
Just remember to post a PRIVATE response, so no one else sees the credentials, as this is a public ticket.
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
[email protected]
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Hi Alexander
Thank you for your reply
Would you please do your test again with a different organiser to staff member. What happens is that the organiser is being synced to the outlook calendar and not the staff... and this is the problem... so if you can test with a different organiser I believer you will find the same...
Regards
Nigel
Hi again Nigel.
I'll test it, of course, but I need you to show me what exactly you mean since the organizer in the Event shown yesterday is different from the Staff - the organizer is the employee "Amelia Test", and the Staff is "Aleksandar Test" employee.
Just a bit more info about how I should test this, and I'll get right onto it.
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
[email protected]
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Hi Aleksandar
I have replied in detail above.
Here is the last attachment showing Amelia Calendar
Attached files: Amelia-Test-5.jpg
Hi Aleksandar
Thank you for working with me on this... I am sorry I misread.. you indeed used a different organiser... however it is not clear from your example who the [email protected] is linked to... is it possible that this is linked to employee amelia test and not yourself?
I have carried out further tests which I hope helps:
Firstly I set up 2 new events for 7th May 2024. For the first event Tricia was the organiser and I (Nigel) was the staff attending... and the second event I was the organiser and Tricia was the staff attending. For each of these I have shown the Outlook calendar entries... you will see that it is the Organiser's outlook calendar that gets synced and not the staff member attending...
To prove that the outlook links/syncs are ok, I added an appointment for me (Nigel). In summary from what I have attached it looks as though:
1. The events sync to the organiser's outlook calendar and not the staff attending
2. However the Amelia calendar appears to display the staff attending correctly...
I have attached the first four screen shots for all this... I hope we can find a solution
Warm regards Nigel
Warm regards Nigel
Attached files: Amelia-Test-1.jpg
Amelia-Test-2.jpg
Amelia-Test-4.jpg
Amelia-Test-3.jpg
Hi again Nigel.
Here's what I checked:
I created 3 events:
The events on February 2nd and February 10th show up for the "Aleksandar Organizer" employee:
The 10th for the Staff employee "Aleksandar Test" doesn't appear:
So we may be onto something here. I'll forward it to our developers, and ask them to expedite this. I'll get back to you as soon as I hear from them.
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
[email protected]
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Hi Aleksandar
Yes that is it... the Syncing from events to Outlook Calendar is using the Organiser and not the staff attending...
Thank you for working with me... hopefully it can be quickly fixed which will make all the difference...
I hope to hear from you soon
Warm regards Nigel
I hope so too, Nigel.
Our developers created a task to handle this, but I can't provide any ETA for the fix. As soon as I hear from them, I'll get back to you - that's for sure.
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
[email protected]
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I just heard back from them, Nigel, they said that it's added as a priority bug, so it should be fixed for our next update.
That is, of course, if they have the time to squeeze in the fix before the next update is released. If they don't have the time to fix it by then, it will surely be included in the update after that.
Please keep an eye on it, test it once the update is released, and let me know.
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
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Hi again Nigel.
Our developers and the QA team worked together on this, and they said that this is not a bug, actually, but a configuration issue.
In Amelia Settings/Integrations/Outlook Calendar you need to have the "Add Attendees" option enabled. Once this is configured, the employees linked to a calendar will receive an event invitation from the organizer, and they will either need to accept the event invitation, or it will be automatically added if their Outlook account is configured like this.
Please test it out with this option enabled and let me know if it works for you.
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
[email protected]
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Hi Aleksandar
Thank you and the team for looking into this and for the information provided.
I have changed the setting regarding attendees and the results are mixed.
What works: Staff attendees do in fact receive an invitation to the event.
Issues:
1. The organiser in many organisations do not actually attend the events that they organise and there appears to be no way to indicate whether or not they attend. I had the idea that maybe I could add a miscellaneous employee (in my case I named it RTHB Admin. However I could not get this to work without also creating a link to outlook, that is... without the Organiser linked to outlook the staff attending sync did not work. This is a problem for me and most organisations, where PA's, Schedulers and Administration staff often organise events that they do not attend... so they would not want their calendars to show that they are... would you look at providing some workaround/flexibility here... maybe provide a tick box next to organiser to say 'Attending?' or actually take this automatic link, with the logic that if the organiser is attending they will also be added to 'Attending;. Your help with this would be much appreciated.
2. A small point, the (?) tip for 'Add Event's Attendees' states:
Enable this option if you want your employees to see in the event customers that attend the appointment. Maybe this could be clearer?
I hope you can help resolve this
Warm regards
Nigel
Hi Aleksandar
Further to my previous message, I have tested. more scenarios for setting up events and have found the following issues:
Another issue is that an invitation email is created for each recurring event. So if the event is weekly for a year, 52 invitation emails will be sent to each employee in the staff attending field. Is there anything we can do to have the option to stop this... in our case, when we add staff attending we want them to be booked, just like we can with appointments. We have a number of events which are weekly, monthly etc and we need to be able to simplify this as it is overwhelm. Hoping you can help.
Aleksandar as you know there has been a lot of to and fro since last July, I really want Amelia to work well and I am desperate to find a simple way forward so that we and others can fully benefit from Amelia.
Hoping you can help. Let me know if you need anything else for me (including examples or beta testing)
Warm regards
Nigel
Hi again Nigel.
The organizer of an event is the employee on whose Google/outlook calendar is the event. Everyone else (staff and customers) are the attendees. This is how Outlook/google calendars operate.
Since we can have multiple employees as staff but only one has to be chosen for the calendar we put a field, organizer, for clients to choose from. Can you explain in more detail what you use the organizer variable for if this user is not attending the event and should not have the event added to their calendar?
And if it's not added to their calendar, on whose calendar should it be saved? The organizer field is so you can choose a member of staff who will have the event on their calendar.
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
[email protected]
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Also, Nigel, one more thing:
We could not reproduce the endlessly loading error when creating many recurring events. This could be affected by your server/hosting.
We will look into creating a setting that would not send an invitation for every event but only one. However, this also depends on the possibility of google/outlook calendars.
The 'fifth' week setting was not added as some months wouldn't have it and therefore the event would exist on some months and not others. Is this the use case you desire? If so, we will consider adding it based on ease of implementation.
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
[email protected]
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Hi Aleksandar
How are you?
Thank you for your responses and some good questions.
In terms of the organiser, my only point was that the organiser does not always attend and their calendar will have the event on it. In our case we have had to create an additional outlook account for a virtual staff member so that this can work. So maybe let us leave that there with no further actions.
In terms of the endlessly loading error since updating to 7.4.1, recurring events seems to work well.
Now to the emails for recurring/multiple events. Imagine if you were running event each Tuesday for the year, the way it is currently, the staff attending would receive 52 emails with each one needing to be confirmed. I just did the same operation on Outlook (live), I created a recurring event for the 4th Thursday each 2 months. My business partner was the organiser and I was invited. I got just one email. If Amelia could operate the same way it would make a real difference.
In terms of the 5th Occurence, yes not every month would have one, however it would ease implementation by not having to manually go through the calendar and identify which months have a 5th and which do not... you already have 4th and last, where last is 4th or 5th, so hopefully adding the 5th option will not be too onerous, and would make real difference.
Thank you for working with me on these issues, which hopefully improves Amelia and the experience for other users also.
Warm regards
Nigel
PS I have added the first 4 screenshots here and will put the other 4 in the next message. They show you the steps from Amelia to outlook and then creating a recurring event in outlook and the email from that...
Attached files: IMG_6143.JPG
IMG_6144.JPG
IMG_6145.JPG
IMG_6146.JPG
Hi Aleksandar
Here are the last 4 screenshots
Let me know of any queries
I look forward to your responses
Warm Regards
Nigel
Attached files: IMG_6150.JPG
IMG_6147.JPG
IMG_6149.JPG
IMG_6148.JPG
Hi again Nigel.
Thank you for getting back to me and sorry for the delay!
I checked with our developers and they said that there's a development task for the 5th week and for the issue of sending email notifications for each and every event separately. We can't promise any ETA, but it is on their "to-do" list!
If I missed anything, please accept my apologies and let me know if there's anything else I can do to help!
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
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Hi Aleksandar
Thank you for working with the developers and good to know that both issues (5th week recurrence) and for outlook going from an email per recurring event to once per recurring event (eg once a week for 52 weeks would create 52 email invitations where as outlook would create just one email).
The difficulty comes when there is no ETA. I understand the load that developers have and the amount of requests, I would ask though that requests and bugs are prioritised by core and non-core... at this stage recurring events are virtually unusable as putting on an event which is recurring such as a weekly classes would result in a staff member attending needing to accept 52 email invitations for each class... so sadly for us until progress can be made by your developers we just cannot go ahead and use the events in Amelia. I would ask you to gain a priority on this with some outline date eg it will be released within one week, one month or whatever, so we can plan accordingly... in our case the update would reflect how outlook already works...
Please help not leaving this so open-ended
Thank you too for working with us, you are the first to do so.
Warm regards
Nigel
Hi again Nigel.
Sorry for the delay once again.
This task has been pushed to the next development sprint, so a rough estimate is that it will be included within a month.
I hope that helps!
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
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Hi Aleksandar
Thank you! Having events which do not create multiple emails will make so much difference. The 5 recurrence will also be very helpful. This is a good step also for Amelia and other users. I am grateful to you for working with me on this and I look forward to being able to fully utilise Amelia very soon.
Warm regards
Nigel
You're welcome, Nigel, glad I could be of assistance!
Let me know if there's anything else I can do to help.
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
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Will do Aleksandar
Let me know if I can assist with beta testing for these changes
Warm regards
Nigel
Hey, Nigel.
We don't generally include external beta testers for improvements, only new features, but I will forward your offer to our developers and if they require assistance, I'll get back to you.
Thank you!
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
[email protected]
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Hi Aleksandar
I have just checked the changelog for 7.5 release and I cannot find anything about creating one email for recurring events or adding 5 week of month occurrence... is it in this release? If not when?
Regards
Nigel
Hey Nigel
The 5 week of month occurrence has been postponed for the next update since we encountered some issues.
As for the invite, it will require more time, so I can't provide you with an ETA on that, I'm afraid.
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
[email protected]
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Hi Aleksandar
This is so disappointing, to have put in so much time in communicating the problem etc and being told the next release, and now after the next release being told no ETA, it means I am stuck... in this case this is to just to adopt the way that outlook already works... not having an ETA leaves me with no hope of a resolution in site... this is a core function in my view... please can you speak with the developers regarding an ETA... recurring events creating an email for each is just so overwhelming for people...
regards Nigel
Hi again Nigel.
I understand your concerns and your request for a modification to the Outlook integration, which is currently unique to your needs. However, I'd like to explain the process involved in making such modifications.
The core functions of the Outlook integration are intricate and deeply integrated into the system. Any changes to these core functions require careful consideration to ensure they don't conflict with other parts of the plugin. Our development team must assess and test these modifications thoroughly to guarantee they work seamlessly.
After implementing the change, our QA team needs to conduct extensive testing to ensure all functionalities, especially those potentially affected by the modification, remain intact. This process often involves back-and-forth between development and QA to ensure everything is functioning correctly.
While we strive to accommodate all requests, we also have to prioritize tasks based on their impact and urgency for all our users. Customizations like these are not covered under our standard support, as they require additional resources and time.
I hope this explanation sheds some light on the process. We appreciate your understanding and patience as we work through this and I certainly hope that the change will be implemented soon.
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
[email protected]
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Thank you for the explanation. If you look back at all of our conversations on this matter, it was all doable and identified as a problem that needed fixing... until it looked difficult...
Your last message whilst explaining the steps, narrows the issue to me... however, anyone using your events calendar to generate recurring events synced with outlook will have the same problem as me, ie if there is a weekly event then there will be 52 emails generated for one event for a year alone, so if running many recurring events, this just becomes overwhelm... and as demonstrated, outlook works correctly in itself... ie one email for a recurring event...
I am hoping that as some time has passed, that you can revisit this issue and encourage it to be resolved... I want to use the events side of Amelia and this recurring problem, just makes it impossible... and as stated it would affect any user... it may even make Amelia more attractive to events-based organisations... one observation I would make is that it appears that the sync to outlook does not take place until Amelia has actually generated all of the recurring events, instead of parsing the initlal parameters of the recurrence.... this maybe why all the individual emails are being created...
Please help with this...
Regards Nigel
I'd like to clarify that while I acknowledged the problem and agreed it needs to be fixed, I never said it was doable. To quote myself from February:
We will look into creating a setting that would not send an invitation for every event but only one. However, this also depends on the possibility of google/outlook calendars.
As you said - outlook works correctly in itself - however the integration included in Amelia is not Outlook itself, it's based on Microsoft's API, and the integration depends on the rules and capabilities of their resources provided to other developers (like us). So, not all core functionalities of Outlook exist in the resources provided for developing the integration.
We did resolve the development task for the 5th-week issue, but the invitation issue remains in our queue. However, as mentioned in my previous response, tasks like this require additional resources and time. We understand the inconvenience this may cause and intend to resolve it as soon as possible. However, we can't provide an ETA or speed up the process due to the complexity of the issue. Here's why:
We most certainly acknowledge that this is a significant issue for users who rely on our Outlook integration. However, we've previously received fewer reports about this problem, which is why we've considered it an inconvenience rather than an urgent priority. As stated before, while we're committed to addressing all user concerns, we also have to prioritize tasks based on their impact and urgency for all our users.
I hope this helps clarify the situation.
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
[email protected]
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Hi Aleksandar
I feel that the tone of our conversation has changed from hope, understanding in your previous messages and collaborative problem solving to explaining why it cannot be done or the difficulties in working on it... this is a genuine problem and until it is fixed, the power of the events side of the Amelia will be hamstrung... so the benefits of solving are there......
I did make an observation in my previous message to assist with this and hopefully this may help in progressing this issue: '
one observation I would make is that it appears that the sync to outlook does not take place until Amelia has actually generated all of the recurring events, instead of parsing the initlal parameters of the recurrence.... this maybe why all the individual emails are being created...'
I appreciate the 5th occurrence being implemented however it needs this other fix to be really useable.
Warm regards NigelHey Nigel,
I believe there's a misunderstanding rather than a change of tone in our correspondence. As I previously mentioned, we do acknowledge the invitation issue and our developers have created a task to fix it. While it was rather easy to fix the 5th-week issue, this one is a bit more complex. I've done my best to assure you that we are working on it, but I can't provide an ETA because anything I say might be incorrect, and that would lead you to think I'm either lying or that we are ignoring your request, which is not true—we definitely agree that the issue needs to be addressed.
Since I'm not a developer, I can't say how long it will take to fix, and all the info I’ve shared is relayed from them. I believe your observations will be helpful, but I can't guarantee their impact as I'm not familiar with the code or how it functions. What I can promise is that the task has been updated with this information, so our developers will consider it once they start working on it.
I'll do my best to expedite the resolution of the issue, but again, I can't promise a specific timeline.
Thanks for your understanding!
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
[email protected]
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Hi Aleksandar
Thank you for your message and for clarifying the situation so well.
Much appreciated, hopefully the developers can find a way forward soon
Warm regards
Nigel
You're welcome, Nigel.
Our team said they'll discuss this during their next planning session, and I hope they'll be able to resolve the issue in the near future.
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
[email protected]
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Hi Aleksandar
IS there any progress with this... I just checked the latest version and it still creates multiple outlook emails for one event with recurring dates?
Regards Nigel
Hi Aleksandar
The issue of creqting multiple emails rather than one for recurring dates also happens with Appointments which is just as difficult... for example if a customer books an employee for each thursday for 40 weeks from 2pm-3pm it will create 40 emails... it would make like much easier and far less cluttered if this was just one summary email... the calendar will do the rest....
Hope you can sort this out
Regards Nigel
Hi Aleksandar
Observing what Amelia does, after creating recurring appointments, it creates individual records for each appointment and as each one is created it seems as though it is at that point that the email(s) are created... whereas if the email could be created from the creation of the recurring appointment and then the recurring records created after, this might be a way forward... in any event... if I had 100 customers created a weekly appointment there would be thousands of appointment emails created... which is overwhelming...
Hope you and your development team can help with this
Regards Nigel
Hey Nigel.
Thanks for your patience with this.
I totally get how overwhelming it can be to receive multiple invitation emails for recurring events. I’m sorry for any frustration this has caused for you and your team.
After chatting with our development team again, we’ve found that the way our plugin currently works isn’t set up to handle this modification. Right now, the events created in the integration aren’t seen as recurring in Outlook. Instead, a separate event is made for each occurrence, which is why you’re getting all those emails. Making it so you only receive one summary email for recurring appointments would require some major changes to how the integration functions (a complete code overhaul).
I know this is a big deal for you, and I encourage you to either vote for this suggestion here or submit a new feature suggestion here. Even though you’re currently the only one bringing this issue up, your input can help us prioritize what we work on next.
I sincerely regret to be the bearer of disappointing news, and I wish I could provide you with a timeline for resolution. However, after thorough discussions with our entire development team, it has become clear that modifying this feature is more complex than we initially anticipated. Currently, refactoring the code for the Outlook Calendar integration is not a priority, as we haven’t received significant feedback regarding its functionality. From my understanding, you’re the only one advocating for this change.
Kind Regards,
Aleksandar Vuković
[email protected]
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